Interview with Loyal Jones

Retired Director of the Berea College Appalachian Center Loyal Jones has written books on humor, including compilations of jokes passed through oral tradition, two biographies (Bradley Kincaid, Bascom Lamar Lunsford) and on the religious beliefs and practices of the Appalachian culture. His newest book, Country Music Humorists and Comedians (University of Illinios Press), is his ninth book and focuses on those associated with the comedy of country music from the early days of radio to today. Mr. Jones talked to Music Tomes about the book and his interest in humor.

Music Tomes: The book covers a lot of well-known comedians, but it also covers some artist not immediately thought of when one thinks of comedy, such as Clarence Ashley and Chet Atkins. What kind of process did you go through to decide which comedians should be included and which excluded?

Loyal Jones: I was interested in people who got their start in such venues as medicine, minstrel, or vaudeville shows playing comedy, even though they went on to be best-know for their singing or musicianship. Clarence Ashley, like Roy Acuff, worked for Doc Hauer's Medicine Show, and he had a comic demeanor. Chet Atkins was a witty person on stage and in private told great jokes and stories. I have knowledgeable friends in the field, such as Bill C. Malone, Ivan Tribe, Wayne Daniel, and the late Charles Wolfe, whom I consulted for names to include, and they were a great help. By having both "humorists" and "comedians" in the title certainly allowed me to cover a wider field. With some I was very subjective; I thought they were funny.

MT: Speaking of Clarence Ashley, he is probably generally best known from his appearances during the folk revival. In the fantastic introduction to the book you touch on the fact that many of the folk and bluegrass groups phased out their comedy during these appearances. You also mentioned that in an interview you had with Ralph Stanley, he shied away from the topic of comedy in his act. Do you feel like some of these acts were made to feel embarrassed of their comedy by the largely urban intellectual audiences they were playing to at those venues?

LJ: A lot of this humor originally was a country humor - as in the city slicker vs. the rube - that allowed the rube to triumph over those who thought they were better than he was, and it made the country person feel better about himself. With the folk revival, you had urban college-educated people and other people of achievement and more sophistication going to folk and bluegrass and country music venues, and they really liked the music, but they didn't take to the comedy which was sometimes corny or worse. It wasn't their kind of humor, and they might interrupt it with a shout for "more music." I think some entertainers could plainly see that their humor wasn't appreciated, and they dropped it and just played music. The Stanley Brothers certainly had a lot of comedy, and both brothers participated in it. I think that with Ralph Stanley's success in recent years, and with his age, he is concerned with his legacy, and he would rather be remembered as a great singer, instrumentalist, and stylist than as a comedian. However, fairly recently I've heard him do the "How Far to Little Rock?" skit with his son and grandson. Among the people I interviewed who used to do humor in these shows, there was a great affection for the old days when they'd have a lot of humor in their shows, and many expressed regret that the humor is not appreciated as much today.

MT: During a time when there was great political and social upheaval, "Hee-Haw" appeared on the scene. It was given bad reviews by many in the press on either coast, but caught on with viewers and ran for 24 years. During that time of change, why do you think many middle Americans took to the show?

LJ: I think that many were harking backward to a simpler time when people had fun together and didn't take themselves too seriously. Everybody knew it was a make-believe world, but once a week, they willingly and joyfully entered that world and refreshed themselves, just like beleaguered people in the Great Depression rejuvenated themselves in the old country music and comedy shows. Most people are too serious-minded or sophisticated to dress up in funny clothing and act silly, but they enjoy watching others do it. Also television brought such nonsense right into the living room and friends would never know what you were watching. Additionally, there was some really good comedic and musical talent on the show as guests and regulars. Then too, the show was a country-oriented version of the show "Laugh-In," which may have been over the heads of a lot of people. Finally, there is a strong anti-intellectual streak in the American grain that rejects too much sophistication and embraces stereotypical views to simplify the complications of life.

MT: There were also those that felt shows like "Hee-Haw," "The Beverly Hillibillies," and "Green Acres" showed rural people in an unflattering light. Now it seems, with comedians like Larry the Cable Guy, that it is more acceptable to "laugh at ourselves." Do you believe that is the case or are we just farther from our roots and perhaps not able to see we are doing so?

LJ: These shows did present country people in unflattering ways, but they were in the tradition of that old dramatic and stage humor about the rube and the city slicker which allowed the under-dog to become the top-dog. The "Toby" shows of long ago and the "Beverly Hillbillies" are quite similar in that both Toby and Jed Clampett were simple but good-humored and honest men, who resisted or sailed above the wiles of city slickers such as Banker Drysdale.

MT: You have written several books on humor, how did you become interested in this topic?

LJ: Well, I grew up among people who told stories and a lot of jokes, and early-on I started a notebook where I wrote down the punch lines of jokes. I also listened to the "Grand Ole Opry" and other stations and heard a lot of the humor associated with country music from such people as Minnie Pearl, Rod Brasfield and "The Duke of Paducah." A college friend, playwright and song writer Billy Edd Wheeler ("I'm Going to Jackson" and "Coming of the Roads"), who also does a lot of humor, and I got together and decided we ought to do a book of Appalachian humor. We already knew a lot, but we decided to stage a humor festival with real humorists and scholars of humor. We did and put together "Laughter in Appalachia," with a lot of stuff we'd stolen at the festival, and that book did so well, we did three other festivals and three more books together. This experience led me to study and think about humor and its purpose and value in our lives. And out of this came "Country Music Humorists and Comedians." Larry the Cable Guy raises other issues, such as what are appropriate subjects to use in public. The old comedians had to be careful because the shows played to family groups. There was some bathroom humor and a little sexual innuendo, but they were pretty clean. Mores have changed a lot and any subject or words are likely to be heard in comedy clubs. I would make this point. the old country humor had a lot of positive elements for the country person. "Redneck" and "Blue Collar Comedy Tour" humor is mostly negative, and the jokes have few positive qualities for the butt of jokes.

MT: Two books that you have written focus on the religion and values of Appalachian people. Do you feel that those values were often brought out in the humor of comedians of the early years of country music? How has that changed over time?

LJ: When cultures come into conflict, it is the differing values people hold that brings a tension, and out of this tension, there are a lot of jokes. One needs to think of jokes as a way to define ourselves and our group and to define those other groups who are different from us. Thus jokes are a form of communication. Church denominations tells jokes on other denominations, for example, and such jokes are relatively gentle and good-humored but portray assumed differences between two sets of beliefs. The values that have changed the most, I think are modesty and humility, which were strong in most church groups in early America, and the sin of pride was the opposite. Now, in order to succeed, persons have to "sell" themselves, especially if you are a politician. The second value that has changed is that of Personal-relatedness. In a rural society we tend to know most everybody in the community and a lot about them personally. In an urban society and in this electronic world of computers and other mean of communication, I think the old personalism is fading, and it was great part of country humor. The last value that has changed is probably that sense of place that is so much a part of country music and comedy. Most of us move a lot in pursuit of our destinies these days and we may not have the same nostalgic longing for the old home place.

MT: If you had to narrow it down, who do you think is the most influential country humorist or comedian?

LJ: I'd say Minnie Pearl and further back Rod Brasfield, and more recently Jerry Clower. Mike Snider is about the only one doing some comedy at the Opry now, and he's good.

MT: Why do you feel that the subjects you write about are important?

LJ: In terms of humor, I think that it is a valuable human trait and is indispensible in coping with the vagaries of life. I don't think we generally value it or even think about it, but it is one quality that definitely sets us humans apart from other beings. I think it affects our basic outlook, and is connected, as Norman Cousins has said, with the positive values of hope, optimism, good will, etc. I've written about many things regarding Appalachia, such as religion and values, music, humor, problems, tradition, partly to find out what I think about them, but also to help others to find meaning and some pride in their native place.

MT: Are you currently working on any new projects?

LJ: I have some material I didn't use in the county music humor book about a lot of other people who used country humor or assumed or accentuated their country persona to say important things. The best example of the latter is Will Rogers. I may do a book on that. I'm also thinking of some sort of memoir, although I suspect the world has enough of those.

MT: Can you recommend a few books you consider essential reading?

LJ: I think first of Bill C. Malone's Country Music USA and Don't Get Above Your Raisin': Country Music and the Southern Working Class. And also Douglas B. Green's Country Roots: The Origins of Country Music.